Recording an orchestra

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Tommy-boy
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Tommy-boy » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:11 pm

Recorders - If you're set on Zoom, consider an F4 or F8 over any H series. Better preamps. F4 currently on sale at Sweetwater for $599. However, for $50 more, you could get a new Sound Devices Mix-Pre3. If you think you'll need more channels, consider the Mix-Pre6. Preamps on F4 will be better than H series. Preamps on Sound Devices will be better still. If you could stretch your budget, I'd pick Sound Devices over Zoom for the following reasons:
- Limiters. Zooms are digital (meaning AFTER the A/D converter). SD uses analog limiters BEFORE the A/D converter. Bottom line - if you have unintended peaks, the SD will handle them much better with far less distortion. I ALWAYS record with limiters on when on location at live events. You never know what's gonna happen. I'm good at setting levels, but the safety net is important. If you always get sound checks, maybe this is less important. I have gigs where I don't get good sound checks, so limiters are key.
- Support. I have called SD support a few times when issues cropped up with my 788T. Every time I've been quickly connected to a knowledgeable SD engineer who helped me resolve my issue. With Zoom - you'll not have anywhere near this level of support.
- Sound Quality - it doesn't get better than Sound Devices. I paid about $8K for my SD 788T with CL-8 attachment. The fact that you can get SD quality now for under $1K is phenomenal.
- Reliability - pros use SD for a reason. They work, are rugged, and reliable.

Another recorder comment - I also have a Roland R-44. It's a nice recorder. Very easy/simple to use. And i actually use the built in mics for recording some school events my kids are in. However.....the sound quality is not on par with my SD 788T. Different league. R-44 isn't bad, just not as good. Also, my R-44 has digital limiters, which i've bumped against from time to time. They do not handle overs as well as the SD analog limiters. You can hear some distortion on the R-44.

tube Preamps - I would not use tube preamps on location. One - I don't want to have to plug into anything. I'm free of power outlets and all of the headaches that can accompany that (getting clean power, conditioners, finding outlet, more cabling to manage, etc...). Two - SD preamps are very clean (but not sterile) - so no need for external pres. F4 or F8 pres are fine also. Three - tube pres are often used to color the sound (although this often comes more from transformers than the tubes), which is not what I'd want from a classical recording.

Which is more important - mics, pres, converters? Mics are first. Pres second, as long as they're not too noisy. Converters last. Converters are quite good these days and it doesn't take a lot of $$$ to get decent conversion. However, mics are different. It generally pays to get more expensive mics.

If you can hold off on buying mics for a while - save up for a used pair of Schoeps with MK5 caps. Versatile as can be omni or card. Sound is fantastic. You'll never regret having a nice pair of schoeps mics. And they hold their value.

If I had your setup and was looking to plan an upgrade path, I'd do it as follows:
1 - Get an SD recorder. Less headaches with power. Would also eliminate using a laptop and separate interface. Less to carry. Easier to use. AT2020s, while perhaps not ideal, still turn out respectable results. You'd still need laptop, etc... if you used it to be redundant. However, getting at least one recorder off of the power grid helps for stability/redundancy if somebody trips over your power cord (or if breaker blows), the battery powered SD keeps on going. If you bought another recorder down the road, you could ditch the laptop.
2 - Buy a passive mic splitter.
3 - Mics. Get SDCs with a slight HF lift to be used as a main pair. If you could save up for a while, consider a used pair of Schoeps with MK5 caps (benefit of omni and card patterns). If that is beyond budget, consider other small SDCs.

Just my 2 cents.

-Tom

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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Early21 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:33 pm

I was not set on the Zoom, it's just that I met someone who was using one for this purpose, and was thinking of redundancy at low cost. I was concerned about mic-pres though. So your input is very useful. The Mix-Pre3 would seem to be a much better choice for the money for this purpose. I even wonder if it is a better primary solution than my laptop with the Steinberg MR816. The MR816 is supposed to have decent preamps with phantom power, and given my usual recording of my band, the eight inputs has been very useful to me. I don't have examples of a bunch of these devices to compare, but I used to use a MOTU interface, and the Steinberg seems to me to have much better sound.

Then I'm wondering, if I have a Mix-Pre3, do I really need redundancy when recording live? No moving parts anywhere, battery powered, it must be extremely reliable. Meanwhile on the laptop, there's operating system, Cubase, hard drives, power cords, firewire cable, etc. that are all vulnerable.

I never even considered a tube pre-amp, and I'm glad you confirmed what I already thought, which is mics most important, pre-amps next, and converters third (nowadays). I got those AT-2020's for next to nothing, so I really have to consider an upgrade, and you are no doubt right that I should wait and save up.

Thanks again, Tom.
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Early21 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:47 pm

And I also wanted reply to your comment on limiting. In my current setup, any limiting would be in my laptop, so I'm pretty sure if I go into the red on the MR816, my only recourse is to try to cover it up in Cubase. So that's why I was trying to be very conservative on the input levels, given 24-bit dynamic range. I didn't hit red once last time out. I hit red every so often when the band is recording, but nothing so ridiculous as to be a problem with our music. But on that Mix-Pre3, having an analog limiter in front would be really useful in a concert recording. Anyway, I think I understand that correctly!
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Tommy-boy » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:17 pm

If you are recording a live event with no second takes, i would recommend redundancy -no matter how good the gear is.

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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Early21 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:36 am

OK, getting ready for the local pro orchestra this weekend. I did buy the QuickLok A50 in the meantime, so at least that issue is solved! Man, that thing is a heavy beast! I think someone would be more likely to break a shin than to knock it over.

I took a look at "The Stereophonic Zoom" pdf, and I think I have a better understanding of the SRA (I hope) so I'll set up my ORTF to keep that in mind -- basically by moving the stand back a row or two if necessary. I still have no redundancy, which is unfortunate, but the orchestra management is not too worried since this is just for archive, and nobody seems to have listened to any of the archives in years! I am truly appreciating the advantages of battery power, so maybe before the next one, I'll be there.

One consideration that occurred to me is that while I'm recording in Cubase, I don't have to sit there with my headphones on -- I can see the wave forms as they come in, so I know if anything has gone wrong. With a portable digital recorder, I suppose the operator really must wear headphones the whole time?

Another thing I'm wondering is if 32-bit float would provide even more headroom. I'm using 24-bit now. But if I used 32-bit, wouldn't I be able to take in a very low signal and still have tons of headroom? I know it takes more disk space, but that's not going to be a problem. At least in this particular instance, I'm going to be able to record the dress rehearsal, so I should have a good idea of the peaks.

I've listened to the recordings of the orchestras from around the area, and I'm not too fearful. I think my mics are not going to be the weak link. Redundancy definitely is. But the ORTF approach, subject to consideration of the SRA, should provide a decent recording. As far as I could tell, the last guy who did this job used one stereo mic, and I assume inside it's an X-Y array (what else could it be), so maybe I can do something a little better, I hope, if the laptop keeps running.

Love to hear anybody's advice at this point, thanks.
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Tommy-boy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:26 am

Glad you got the A50. I've had mine for many years and it's still going strong. As I get older, I ponder how long I can keep carrying that thing around. It is a beast.

Portable digital recorder question - nope, you don't have to wear headphones the whole time. Meters indicate signal being recorded, conceptually similar to wave form drawing you look at in Cubase. I don't wear headphones much when recording live events.

Bits question - 24 is enough as it picks up plenty of detail while leaving a lot of headroom. I haven't recorded with 32, so I can't comment on this based on experience. Maybe somebody who has used cubase to record at 24 and 32 bits can weigh in.

Mic point - you're right. Stereo mics are often XY. You'll do much better with your ORTF array.

Redundancy - you're right here too. This is your weak point.

-Tom

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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Tommy-boy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:16 pm

Was thinking of the bits question. I've never seen or heard of an AD converter that operates at higher than 24 bits. Maybe a 32 bit converter exists, but I haven't seen it. So if the converter is at 24 bits, would it make any sense to have cubase recording at 32 bits?

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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Early21 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:38 am

Thanks Tom... I've recorded in 32-bits float (a project that was passed to me). In general, I guess it's overkill. But if, as you think, the converter is working at 24 bits, then I can't think of a reason to record higher than 24 bits. Anyway, 24-bit is huge headroom as it is, so I guess I'll stick to that. Wish me luck!

You know, I was wondering, as a sort of side issue, what makes one pre-amp better than another, assuming they're solid state. I know lots of people want tube pre-amps for coloration, but that's clearly not applicable for a live classical performance (I think - maybe somebody feels it's a subject to discuss). I am wondering what an expensive solid state preamp has that an inexpensive solid state preamp doesn't have. I can only say from experience that my Steinberg MR816CSX seems to have a better recording sound than the unit it replaced, at MOTU 8-pre. I still have that unit, but I only use it to record additional percussion tracks!
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Stephen57 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:29 am

This is great thread. Thanks for all the good advice and ideas.
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Early21 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:59 am

It may be generally a quiet forum, but there are a lot of smart and genuinely helpful people here!
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Early21 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:54 pm

OK, concert recorded successfully! Turns out there is a guy in the orchestra who is well versed in live recordings. He came to defend me when I was explaining to orchestra management at the dress rehearsal that I needed at least two seats reserved for me. Evidently, the guy before me put his boom stand right against the stage, so the boom did not block any seats, and there were no wires crossing the space between stage and seats. But I was not willing to put my mics right over the conductors head, and that giant A50 clearly impeded two seats. The orchestra guy supported my arguments, so management caved in, made some seat changes, and blocked two seats for all concerts going forward.

The dress rehearsal recording went well. My new friend in the orchestra volunteered to bring his own Zoom F8 recorder to the concert so that I would have redundancy, and he also had an ART passive mic splitter. So on concert night, in a matter of 5 minutes, we set up his recorder and sent my mics to both recorders (direct to my Steinberg MR816). Everything worked perfectly. One of the great features of the F8 is that you can replicate your mics to other channels, the purpose of which is to allow you to sequentially lower the input levels. In this case, my new friend set it up with four stereo inputs (two by mic cable and two by replication), and he set the inputs lower for each pair. This is a great technique for avoiding overages and distortion -- if the first pair went over, you have three others to rely on. But I have not heard what his recorder picked up so I can't comment on the preamps. Reviews online seem to indicate it's a pretty good box.

My 10-year-old laptop captured everything, I had no moments going into the red (having determined the levels the night before), and the backup machine also recorded everything as far as I know. Once you get insurance, you don't really need it!

I had people in the seats on either side of my two seats, even though the concert wasn't sold out. Turns out the front row seats are the cheapest, and the hard-of-hearing like to snap them up. Not only do they have difficulty hearing the orchestra, they have difficulty hearing themselves. Including involuntary bodily noises. At one point, the person next to me began to hum one of the more popular melodies, and he couldn't hear me when I whispered to him. And I have a pretty good idea what he had for dinner. But the A50 goes high enough that I can't hear it in the recording. That's at least one advantage to putting the mic up by the stage instead of by the seats, but, I can report that my recordings are much more alive and stereo than the last guy's. Still, whatever these aging fans do, one thing they do is show up and pay, so lots of respect to them; this orchestra wouldn't exist without them.

Actually, I'm pretty pleased with the overall stereo effect. Lots of coughs, though, further back. The mics were maybe 12 feet behind the conductor, who had his musicians around him right up to the edge of the stage. I had the A50 as high as it would go, so it was a little over the conductor's head, but not much. I think I fit within the SRA of 96 degrees.

As I mix, I'm not so happy with the bass. There were four basses at the extreme right of the stage, but the percussion was put at the extreme left. The last piece, Scheharazade, features a lot of percussion. Turning up the bass (perhaps to compensate for my cheap mics) also turns up the low percussion. Still, I think I've got a good representation of what they did. Long live live orchestras!

I had another complaint (from one of the organization's board members) that my laptop was too bright, and he wanted me to turn the screen toward the stage. Of course that would have meant I couldn't see it. But I did realize I have to turn the brightness down. And this is yet another advantage to a dedicated digital field recorder. So I am thinking my next purchase is one of those (probably SoundDevices Mix Pre3), and the ART splitter has to go with that. Then, it's better mics.

I had anxiety about the power cord, but fortunately nobody kicked it up. During intermission I stood on the cord in front of all the equipment to ensure that if the cord was kicked, it would come out of the slack on the other end. I also had anxiety about recording levels, and I began to wonder if there is a specific downside to recording too low at 24-bits. I think, based on my limited knowledge of LPs, that you can fit an orchestra into a 60Db range or so, and with 24-bits, you have something like double that, so even if you were 60Db too low, you would still be ok. Have I understood that correctly?

Thanks for everybody's help on this project!
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Strophoid » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:26 pm

Great to hear your experiences mate :)
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by matjones » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:31 pm

Yep i'm still enjoying this one...
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Stephen57 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Early21 wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:54 pm
OK, concert recorded successfully!

[...]
Thanks for everybody's help on this project!
I'm glad it all worked out and it sounds like you asserted what you needed. I also think it was very smart to have a backup recording and the overload protection on the backup tracks is a very wise move.

Maybe you'll post something on "made with cubase" eventually for us to hear a bit of?

Good luck with future projects.
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Early21 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:54 pm

Hi Stephen, maybe I can do an extract. Going to deliver the mix tomorrow, so let's see what the management thinks!
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Early21 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:09 am

Here's an extract of what I recorded and mixed on Saturday. As mentioned earlier, this is a pair of very cheap AT-2020 mics in an ORTF configuration into the Steinberg MR816CSX interface into a 10-year-old IBM laptop into Cubase. I did my best mix within Cubase, which consisted primarily of equalization and loudness processing. I also added a touch of reverb -- the dress rehearsal didn't seem to need it, but the concert night was full of warm bodies. Some of them were humming, but the mics didn't pick it up. But a lot of them were coughing -- waiting for the quiet parts, apparently. The loudness processing is through Ozone 5. I did have redundant recording, but I didn't need it since the main path caught the whole thing. It could be that the other path had better quality, but I'll never know.
https://soundcloud.com/incontinentals/s ... de-extract

Would love any comments before I take it down!
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Stephen57 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:21 am

Early21 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:09 am
Here's an extract of what I recorded and mixed on Saturday.


Would love any comments before I take it down!
It sounds excellent to my ears. Nice balances of the parts, very clear and clean sound, no harshness, good dynamic range, good imaging. Very listenable and enjoyable. You worked really hard to make this come out so well and it really worked.
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Early21 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:31 am

Thanks Stephen, it was an interesting project. You can hear a lot of audience in the quiet parts, but you can also hear the conductor stamp his feet at certain moments! He was quite enthusiastic, by the way. Talking to the musicians, they were happy and energized by the performance.
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Tommy-boy » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:26 am

Hi Early,

Nice work. Imaging is great. Sound is balanced. You should be happy with that recording.

I had to chuckle when I read your comments about people talking and coughing. Welcome to live recording! It happens all of the time. Hiking the mics up helps, but nothing really cures it. You also had the benefit of using directional mics with the dead side of the cardiod pattern pretty much to the audience. Another benefit of the ORTF technique and is part of the reason that array almost never sounds bad. It picks up what it's aimed at without pulling in much of the room sound.

Over the years I've had to deal with sounds from coughs, doors being closed, sneezes, talking, phones ringing, babies crying, and more. Usually I let it go and don't try to edit it out as its part of a "live" performance. However, if it's really bad, I might try to do some editing. I usually accomplish this using spectral editing in Wavelab. It's tricky to do, but can be effective. The goal is to minimize the offending freq without messing with the sound. Sometimes if the noise is in the same freq as key elements of the music, you're simply screwed and have to live with it.

I've been sorely tempted to leave a bowl of cough drops out at the entrance for people to take to reduce coughing.

-Tom

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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Early21 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:39 pm

Ha, good idea about the cough drops! Thanks for listening and commenting.
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by matjones » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:45 pm

Tommy-boy wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:26 am
I've been sorely tempted to leave a bowl of cough drops out at the entrance for people to take to reduce coughing.

-Tom
A sharp, swift blow to the back of the head with a large, dense pointy object works best! :lol: :twisted:
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Early21 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:58 pm

matjones wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:45 pm
Tommy-boy wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:26 am
I've been sorely tempted to leave a bowl of cough drops out at the entrance for people to take to reduce coughing.

-Tom
A sharp, swift blow to the back of the head with a large, dense pointy object works best! :lol: :twisted:
But then you need a scream filter on the mix.
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Stephen57 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:27 pm

I once recorded a group of Tu Van throat singers with a Schoeps CMC 6 MK/21. It was very good at minimizing the audience noises. Another time I added basketball bouncing because an interview had started without anyone on the court and during it, the players came out and started warming up -- bounce, bounce, bounce. So, we took that as "room tone" to put under the earlier quiet part of the interview -- sometimes worse is better. ;-)

I'd also consider handing out a little slip or even making an announcement explaining that a recording is being made tonight -- so please try to keep things quiet, particularly during softer parts of the music.

I'd like to see some screen shots of the Project just to see how it all looked inside Cubase. It really is a nice recording. I'm glad to see the positive comments about it.
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DAW: Cubase Pro 9.0.40; PC: HP Z230, i5 CPU quad-core 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gigs RAM; OS: Win 7 Pro 64-bit; Audio Converter, Scarlett 2I4; USB MIDI Controller, Akai Advance 49. VST Instruments: Steinberg: HSSE, Retrologue 2, Groove Agent SE, Padshop, Mystic, Prologue, Spector; Air Music: Hybrid, Transfuser 2, Vacuum Pro, Velvet, Xpand2; Novation: Bass Station; Sonovox Grand Piano; Rack: Proteus 2000, Korg 03R/W, Yamaha TG 33. Monitoring with KRK Rokit 8/G3.

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Stephen57
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Stephen57 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:38 pm

Tommy-boy wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:11 pm
Recorders -
Just my 2 cents.

-Tom
Tom, thanks for all your comments on this thread. I'm glad you took the time to post such long, detailed and useful comments here. Great job.
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DAW: Cubase Pro 9.0.40; PC: HP Z230, i5 CPU quad-core 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gigs RAM; OS: Win 7 Pro 64-bit; Audio Converter, Scarlett 2I4; USB MIDI Controller, Akai Advance 49. VST Instruments: Steinberg: HSSE, Retrologue 2, Groove Agent SE, Padshop, Mystic, Prologue, Spector; Air Music: Hybrid, Transfuser 2, Vacuum Pro, Velvet, Xpand2; Novation: Bass Station; Sonovox Grand Piano; Rack: Proteus 2000, Korg 03R/W, Yamaha TG 33. Monitoring with KRK Rokit 8/G3.

For help with Cubase:
Documentation - https://steinberg.help/
Everything you need to know about Generic Remote setups --
viewtopic.php?f=226&t=102993
The Steinberg Forum Knowledgebase for Users by Users viewtopic.php?f=198&t=23576

Early21
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Re: Recording an orchestra

Post by Early21 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:51 am

Yes, I'll second that! Rather than post a bunch of screen shots, I'll just describe what I did, based on guidance here and some other articles I found on other forums.

Based on Tom's advice, as previously discussed, I bought the very tall stand and placed it about 12 feet from the conductor, and some of the musicians were actually in front of the conductor on the stage. It also seemed to be about the right distance to get a good Stereo Recording Angle based on the ORTF mic configuration. So that's basically the input side. Mics into MR816csx into my old laptop running Cubase 4.5. I had set up a template with two mono tracks going to left and right on the output track. So I just had to hit the record button. I tried to peak somewhere around -12 db, based on the dress rehearsal, but I think I hit about -9 at the highest point, so I had plenty of overhead.

I then copied the whole Cubase project from the laptop to my deskside running Cubase 8. I did not change anything about left and right panning - the left mic is hard left and the right mic is hard right. I cut the tracks so the applause was in separate segments. Then I selected all of the audio segments with the orchestra in it on both channels and normalized to zero. I'm now thinking I should have normalized left and right separately. Maybe somebody has a thought on this. After all, the gain was set manually by me looking at the input levels I was getting in dress, so they weren't necessarily equal in any way.

Processing after that was basically equalization, loudness, and reverb. With equalization, I was primarily trying to boost the bass a little. They had four basses; probably could have used more in the loud sections of Scheherazade. I do most of this in Ozone 5, and my first try was to boost the bass in Ozone, but I wasn't happy with the fact that I was also boosting timpani, which were really too loud in the peaks of Scheherazade. I thought it was strange that they placed the timpani right behind the first violins, and close to the front of the stage, but talking to the Executive Director, that was just done by custom for this orchestra. It was a guest conductor who didn't want to break their normal routine. So then I gave up on that approach and instead boosted the bass in the right channel only, as the basses were on the far right, and it had less of an effect on the timpani.

For loudness, I first tried using a hard limiter on the master channel. Looking at the wave images, it was obvious that the peaks were all coming from the percussion (and this is always the case), so I just wanted to get those down without affecting other dynamics. But something about the hard limiter sounded harsh to me. So I instead used the Maximizer in Ozone. Reading the manual, it describes the function as an algorithm that anticipates peaks by looking ahead and then applying psychoacoustic science to lower the peaks in such a way as to make the lowering less noticeable. If you think about it, a limiter in the digital world is just a model of the circuits developed to do that before we even had digital. And it now makes sense to me that now that it's all digital, it could be done in entirely different and more satisfying ways. So instead of applying a limiter, I found that the Ozone plugin sounded a lot better. And I set the point of starting to limit at -7db, which seems extreme, until you look at what is in those last 7 decibels, which is all percussion transient peaks.

And last, for reverb, since the hall was largely full, and my mics were not so far from the stage (and cardioid), I added some reverb. I tried all the versions in Cubase, but it sounded best with the reverb supplied by Ozone. As someone said in another forum, you don't really need to put Hall convolution on something that was already recorded in a hall; you just need a light simple reverb.

In the end, I still felt the recording was missing "body", and I added a small wide hump of midrange in the equalizer of the Cubase master channel.

No compression anywhere, but limiting as I've described.

So that's it; would love any comments.
Cubase 8.0, Wavelab 6 Essential, HP PE i7950/Win7, Lenovo T61 Laptop/WinXP/ADS Pyro Express Card, MR816CSX
My album Incontinental Breakfast at lborden.bandcamp.com

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